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RudeGal
Senior Villager
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 385
Location: London
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| Mete wrote: |
Along the same lines, why can't 200.000 Greek Cypriots live in their homes in the north today? What did they do to deserve 34 years of deprivation from their properties? See, RudeGal, Greek Cypriots have the political representation and Turkish Cypriots have the land. Greek Cypriots have the embargoes and political representation as bargaining chips, Turkish Cypriot have the former Greek Cypriot land as a bargaining chip and no side is willing to give up anything before a comprehensive solution. This is it. |
You are right Mete, it is a stalemate, but quality of life for two sides is very different, and that is what is now striking a chord with rest of the world.
Also, as we all know, we cannot turn clock back to 1963/74, though we must ensure we remedy situation as best we can and try to move towards EU norms (which in essence will mean island evenetually moves back to pre 63 Cyprus). That's why 65% of Turkish Cypriots said Yes to a compromise solution which involved Varosha and Morphou back in Greek Cypriot hands, and I'm sure even under Turkish controlled areas, some Greek Cypriots would also return (via ECHR rulings etc).
But we have all moved on from Annan/2004 and our positions are more entrenched then ever. Turkish Cypriots in Morphou have said "to hell with Greek Cypriots/UN, we will not live in limbo land any more" and anyone visiting there can see lots more development in this region too. So, I cannot see anyway out of this other than we all stay where we are, unless you are ready to fight for years for your case to go before ECHR and get compensation/existing person out, or go via Property Commission in North and ditto in South equivalent (though much harder for Turkish Cypriot to get property compensation/return in South given rules, but ECHR will solve that too!). |
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repulsewarrior
Deputy
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1771
Location: Canada
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| RudeGal wrote: |
| Mete wrote: |
Along the same lines, why can't 200.000 Greek Cypriots live in their homes in the north today? What did they do to deserve 34 years of deprivation from their properties? See, RudeGal, Greek Cypriots have the political representation and Turkish Cypriots have the land. Greek Cypriots have the embargoes and political representation as bargaining chips, Turkish Cypriot have the former Greek Cypriot land as a bargaining chip and no side is willing to give up anything before a comprehensive solution. This is it. |
You are right Mete, it is a stalemate, but quality of life for two sides is very different, and that is what is now striking a chord with rest of the world.
Also, as we all know, we cannot turn clock back to 1963/74, though we must ensure we remedy situation as best we can and try to move towards EU norms (which in essence will mean island evenetually moves back to pre 63 Cyprus). That's why 65% of Turkish Cypriots said Yes to a compromise solution which involved Varosha and Morphou back in Greek Cypriot hands, and I'm sure even under Turkish controlled areas, some Greek Cypriots would also return (via ECHR rulings etc).
But we have all moved on from Annan/2004 and our positions are more entrenched then ever. Turkish Cypriots in Morphou have said "to hell with Greek Cypriots/UN, we will not live in limbo land any more" and anyone visiting there can see lots more development in this region too. So, I cannot see anyway out of this other than we all stay where we are, unless you are ready to fight for years for your case to go before ECHR and get compensation/existing person out, or go via Property Commission in North and ditto in South equivalent (though much harder for Turkish Cypriot to get property compensation/return in South given rules, but ECHR will solve that too!). |
...consider the creation of enclaves as I proposed under these assumptions: there is a geographic change which compels both to adapt, without the loss of their society's fabric. and it allows for a great number of the displaced, settlers and those who will be displaced to have more choices, movements of populations as communities, as well as individuals. It will allow for the geographic solution that is needed, being truly bizonal.
Similarly, using the Contitution of 1960 as a basic foundation, allow for two National Assemblies instead of a Communal chamber, as well as a bicameral legislature for the Republic and you have c itizens who can identify with Cyprus as a single State that has no bias ethnicly due to demographics, where all citizens have equality as well as their Individual Rights defended. Living in a zone, under the jurisdiction of one National Assembly or the other, allows for the existence of the same democratic principals for all its electors, because there will be a reciprocal recognition of minorities, where an ethnic majority will have effective control over its sustainability. as such, having two levels of government mat be more costly in monetary terms, but it will be, truly, bicommunal; Unlike the Annan plan which in this regard was not democratic, confusing, and unable to address the need for the two societies to be inclusive. |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 931
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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| cypezokyli wrote: |
the same things we do in the south.
anytime you listen about "illegal trading" of a specific good from the dead zone, be sure that it is some Greek Cypriot businessmen whose interests are hurt that stir that in the news. |
Ok Cypez we often hear ordinary people in the streets calling others different names because they trade with North "don't spend money in North and the taxes will go to Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and blah blah blah" but I never heared of laws restricting Cypriots living in the South to buy goods for personal use from the occupied areas.
| cypezokyli wrote: |
If i am not mistaken (i am not 100% sure)even the embargos , were the result of Greek Cypriot businessmen in england. If thats the case we learn two things:
that the embargoes (we so strongly support) were the result of business interests and not our clever politicians tactic. we nevertheless support them as if it is a "national interest" , and Turkish Cypriots really believe that we want to keep them poor.
the second is that the embargoes were not the result of the SC reolutions after the declaration of the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus". this happened years later but inbetween the Turkish Cypriot economy was no better. while i do not doubt that the isolation affects negatively the Turkish Cypriot economy, this shows something else - that to a big extent, the achievements of the Turkish Cypriot economy are a consequnce of denktash economic policies and not a result of the isolation. |
"the embargoes on Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus were the idea of business men" and so? Sorry Cypez I don't understand the point you are trying to make (I can assume but I don't want to put words to your mouth )
| RudeGal wrote: |
| Economic competition scares many Turkish Cypriot businesses - they never really had to deal with it before, but competition is good for both the consumer and for all Cyprus. Thing is, it's not a fair 2-way trading street as ordinary Greek Cypriots get treated like 'traitors' for spending any money in the North, and while Turkish Cypriot border traffic/shopping doubled, Greek Cypriot figs for reverse has halved. |
Well at the beginning it was the other way round, because things were cheaper in the North there were way more Greek Cypriots purchasing goods and spending money in the North, but with the inflation of the North over the past few years, now Turkish Cypriots find it cheaper to shop in the South. I know Rudegal unfortunately some Greek Cypriots call others ‘traidors’ for trading in North and that is sad but I believe it is not the main reason why people stopped crossing. I believe it is in the nature of people to look at their own benefits and search for the best value for money. At the moment there is no great economic need for Greek Cypriot to purchase goods from the North. Personally I recognise that life should move on and that it is not the mistake of ordinary Turkish Cypriots that we have a divided Cyprus. I don’t restrict myself from spending money in the North but I avoid supporting the mass development on Greek Cypriot land therefore I wouldn’t stay in a hotel or go to casino that it is build on Greek Cypriot owned property. Am I too harsh?
| RudeGal wrote: |
| Also, seeing free market economic collapse in the North is not good for anyone - more civil servants, more handouts from (and more dependency on) Turkey, less unity & good vibes. Don't forget, Turkish Cypriot business community is influential and a few years ago, was at forefront of pushing for unity solution. It is not in Greek Cypriot interests to isolate and lose their support... |
Ofcourse the isolation of Turkish Cypriots is not in the interest of Greek Cypriots and that is why I believe it is madness to think that the isolation comes entirely from the Republic of Cyprus. I don’t want to say that the economic embargoes posed by Republic of Cyprus on Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus do not affect the economic situation of Turkish Cypriots but as I said the Republic of Cyprus offers alternatives that Turkish Cypriots can use to end the isolation. Ofcourse many Turkish Cypriots don’t want to do that because they don’t want to recognise Republic of Cyprus and so the game goes around in cyrcles.
Nevertheless I think the isolation of Turkish Cypriots is in the interest of Turkey; isn’t it? I guess for Turkey the isolation is an excuse to promote the need for two separate states in Cyprus. |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 931
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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| RudeGal wrote: |
Also, as we all know, we cannot turn clock back to 1963/74, though we must ensure we remedy situation as best we can and try to move towards EU norms (which in essence will mean island evenetually moves back to pre 63 Cyprus). That's why 65% of Turkish Cypriots said Yes to a compromise solution which involved Varosha and Morphou back in Greek Cypriot hands, and I'm sure even under Turkish controlled areas, some Greek Cypriots would also return (via ECHR rulings etc). |
Just a question Rudegal what compromises were Turkish Cypriots required to give up under Anan Plan?
Because to me it seems that the Anan Plan is only the second prefered choice of Turkish Cypriots after partition (two separate recognised states).
Please try to understand why Greek Cypriots voted NO and don't jumb to the conclusion just like Turkey suitably does to say Greeks are not interested in reunification.
Actually I just remembered the analogy that DP gave for Anan Plan
What would you do if someone stole all you possesions and offered back very little with condition that you would forget everything else? |
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erolz
Site Admin
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 4195
Location: Kyrenia / Girne
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| stavrizatz wrote: |
| Just a question Rudegal what compromises were Turkish Cypriots required to give up under Anan Plan? |
You mean other than the substantial amounts of land currently under Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus control that would have been under Greek Cypriot component state control after the Annan Plan and the associated hardship that would have meant for the 20,000 odd Turkish Cypriot needed to be displaced to achieve this ? Other than accepting that upto 30% of the citizens who voted at the federal component state level in the Turkish Cypriot component state could be Greek Cypriot residing in the Turkish Cypriot component state and no restrictions on how may could buy property and or live their and maintain their franchise at the component state level within the Greek Cypriot component state ? Other than the removal of Turkish troops other than the 600 allowed under 60's agreements ? Other than accepting reducing their political control to one of sole control over their own affairs to that of federal control under a unified central federal organ ?
The idea that the Annan plan required compromise and sacrifice only of Greek Cypriot and gave Turkish Cypriot everything they wanted is just nonsense imo. As is the idea that it somehow gave Turkish Cypriot superior rights to Greek Cypriot. The Annan plan required compromise and sacrifice and risk from both Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot communities. You can argue that it required more from one than the other but you can not imo sensibly argue that it required all from one and none from the other. |
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Mete
Warnings : 3
Deputy
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1150
Location: Boston
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| stavrizatz wrote: |
Nevertheless I think the isolation of Turkish Cypriots is in the interest of Turkey; isn’t it? I guess for Turkey the isolation is an excuse to promote the need for two separate states in Cyprus.
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I don't think that Turkey benefits from the isolation of Turkish Cypriots. It's quite the contrary actually. Due to isolation, Turkey has to pay a lot of things in the north to keep the ship afloat per say. Turkey does not need Turkish Cypriots to be isolated in order to promote a two state solution. |
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pg
Deputy
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: Cyprus
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| RudeGal wrote: |
| But we have all moved on from Annan/2004 and our positions are more entrenched then ever. Turkish Cypriots in Morphou have said "to hell with Greek Cypriots/UN, we will not live in limbo land any more" and anyone visiting there can see lots more development in this region too. |
I thought the Turkish Cypriot community was showing commitment to a solution, and so should be rewarded with decreased isolation...  |
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repulsewarrior
Deputy
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1771
Location: Canada
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...in the end it is a question of economics. the reality is that Turkey not unlike the other interlocutors have designs which are constructed over a very long term (200 years). contemporarily, it took at least sixty years for them to get to a situation where as an investment, this attempt at securing their sovereignty over Cyprus will provide returns. in this aspect, yes, the cost of subsidising the population of Turcophomes in Cyprus has become costly, without recognition, positive in nature from the international community, yet, for these efforts.
frankly, what disgusts me is the pity card that's used so freely toward this cause. Turkish Cypriots, as Turcophones are relegated to begging for attention in any way possible; witness the "Grand Prix" fiasco. nothing positive about their distinction can bear its own weight because of the mono clonal nature of the National identity which it seems all "Turks" must conform to. ...why else after all these years has it been impossible to find a leader who through a positive nature compels his electorate to have confidence and goodwill, as an island dweller, as a Turkish Cypriot, truly their representative, with a nature which reciprocates the same desires in a counterpart.
the irony...Denktash the hero in a Cyprus history, asking for the delay in the Annan referendum, along with his confrere TPap. Talat the weak, who would not take hold of this lead failed us, compelling himself to follow interests outside the Cypriot realm.
Turkey at the advent sought to isolate "Turks", "Greeks" are no better. |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 931
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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| Mete wrote: |
| stavrizatz wrote: |
Nevertheless I think the isolation of Turkish Cypriots is in the interest of Turkey; isn’t it? I guess for Turkey the isolation is an excuse to promote the need for two separate states in Cyprus.
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I don't think that Turkey benefits from the isolation of Turkish Cypriots. It's quite the contrary actually. Due to isolation, Turkey has to pay a lot of things in the north to keep the ship afloat per say. Turkey does not need Turkish Cypriots to be isolated in order to promote a two state solution. |
Fair enough, I had that though because Turkey needs to have something to justify its presence in Cyprus and I thought that maybe if Turkish Cypriots were trading through the ports of the South, travelling trhough the ports of the South, cross without the visa, then the image given out to the international community will be that the role of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is not necessary. And I believe the attempt is to try and upgrade Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus as much as possible to fanction as an independent state. Maybe I have the wrong impression. |
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stavrizatz
Mukhtar/is
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 931
Location: Australia / Lefkosia
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| erolz wrote: |
| You mean other than the substantial amounts of land currently under Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus control that would have been under Greek Cypriot component state control after the Annan Plan and the associated hardship that would have meant for the 20,000 odd Turkish Cypriot needed to be displaced to achieve this ? |
To me if I steal 100 Euros and return back 10, it is not a compromise. The right of return for all refugees should not be compromised, however with all peace agreements, some human rights have to be compromised because the powerful useally is very easily willing to give up what it has gained.
| Quote: |
| Other than accepting that upto 30% of the citizens who voted at the federal component state level in the Turkish Cypriot component state could be Greek Cypriot residing in the Turkish Cypriot component state and no restrictions on how may could buy property and or live their and maintain their franchise at the component state level within the Greek Cypriot component state ? |
Again we are not talking of compromises, we are talking of civil liberties where in a healthy democracy every person is treated as equal and has the right to elect and be elected.
| Quote: |
| Other than the removal of Turkish troops other than the 600 allowed under 60's agreements ? |
I am more than happy to return to the 1960s agreements and Turkey could keep 10000 troops. but when the total dimilitirisation of Cyprus is agreed, I believe we should all feel happy about it.
| Quote: |
| Other than accepting reducing their political control to one of sole control over their own affairs to that of federal control under a unified central federal organ ? |
And this is a compromise!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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RudeGal
Senior Villager
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 385
Location: London
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| stavrizatz wrote: |
| Fair enough, I had that though because Turkey needs to have something to justify its presence in Cyprus and I thought that maybe if Turkish Cypriots were trading through the ports of the South, travelling trhough the ports of the South, cross without the visa, then the image given out to the international community will be that the role of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is not necessary. And I believe the attempt is to try and upgrade Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus as much as possible to fanction as an independent state. Maybe I have the wrong impression. |
I'm always amazed how given events of 63-1974, two parts of the Cypriot nation see Turkey in such different ways: invader/saviour. Given Turkey is a key actor in this situation, one of the ways to breaking the deadlock in Cyprus is to help Greek Cypriot perspective of Turkey. If Greek Cypriots stop seeing Turkey as purely an 'evil sinister presence', perhaps some new norms can evolve?.
Everyone in this sorry situation has made mistakes, past & present, some with enormous and tragic consequences, so vilifying one party all the time is neither fair nor positive/helpful.
In this troubled region, getting Turkey onside is not a bad thing. Surely an important and powerful ally to have, with lots of positive potential for everyone. We have a good role model in Greece and Turkey - the relations are not perfect but moving in right direction. they still disagree, but also find ways to develop common interests, so hostility between two is down, and increased positive interation/understanding/mutual benefits all up.
There's a phrase I came across recently, love the sinner, hate the sin. I wonder if Greek Cypriot posters think they can see a day when Turkey can be related to in a different, less hostile way? I know if the troops/land issues were dealt with, this might make things much easier. But in the absence of that, can Greek Cypriots (for their own peace) move forward, like EU post War War II, like Greece-Turkey? |
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RudeGal
Senior Villager
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 385
Location: London
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| pg wrote: |
| RudeGal wrote: |
| But we have all moved on from Annan/2004 and our positions are more entrenched then ever. Turkish Cypriots in Morphou have said "to hell with Greek Cypriots/UN, we will not live in limbo land any more" and anyone visiting there can see lots more development in this region too. |
I thought the Turkish Cypriot community was showing commitment to a solution, and so should be rewarded with decreased isolation... |
Sadly pg, Turkish Cypriots are just going off the boil with lots of things. They have been let down by a lot of people (themselves included), so losing belief in lots now.
I hope 2008 can be a good introspective year for both sides. What do we really want? Are our fears really justified? What do we stand to gain/lose by staying apart? How can we all benefit if we join forces and what would be the best way?
Politicians on both sides behaving badly, time for people-civil society to seize the initiative.
In just the two threads I'm following on TalkCyprus, I'm seeing some really wise and excellent thoughts, lots of interesting, respectful interaction. Heated we may become, but it's out of passion/caring, and fact is, that's a great place for Cypriots to move forward (and I know we not only place this is happening). Fact is, more dialogue leads to better understanding, which fosters respect, and trust, cooperation, confidence - all needed for that major leap of faith...
Rome wasn't built in a day! But if we never seize the day, all we will definitely do is grow apart... |
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repulsewarrior
Deputy
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1771
Location: Canada
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...have you read my proposal for a Treaty of Defense, between Republic of Cyprus and Turkey?
...i have also proposed a Free Trade Agreement between Greece and Turkey, because it will become a powerful regional force which may produce for all their neighbouring countries a means to maximse both social and economic margins of scale.
...i don't count on leaders firmly entrenched in adversarial regimes to think up these things. but with a little popular support such ideas will merit consideration. |
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repulsewarrior
Deputy
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 1771
Location: Canada
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but Turkey does need the populace of Turkpohones in Cyprius isolated because it is a mono clonal society...at least that is what it has become with the death of Ataturk.
Turkey in my opinion, needs the isolation to be seen as benevolent, nationalisticly, and the suffering which exists is a particular characteristic that is highly exploited, for the consumption of a domestic audience as well as inidentifing for them a hostile preoccupation.
This it appears is the cost to which this State, measures its benefits. Therefore, it is surprising to me that 90 million people, cannot provide for about 200,000 people a sustinance where they can feel prosperous. And I suggest to you that Takism, a politic of Fear, lives because the Cypriot population is so small that if United, by reason of having a Sovereign choice, they would have in them the potential to demonstrate solidarity in a manner which for Turkey, let's say post Kemal, is not welcome, leading to Turks becoming Turcophones within a society of peoples who make up the Turkish State.
...no Mete, the misery in Cyprus is a small cost, and as a distraction having huge benefits. to "Turkey". |
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depurple
Warnings : 1
Ministerial
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 2879
Location: Australia
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RG just to add my opinion on " seeing Turkey as evil" by many Greek Cypriot!
What do you expect?
The 2nd invasion of Cyprus was done or planned during an agreed UN resolution ceasefire! What do you call this? I call this EVIL!
But having said this why do the Armenians and Kurds and others call Turkey EVIL?
Why do so many in the EU have doubts with Turkey?
ask yourself that:
Then Ask why Britain is the main supporter of Turkey and the EU!
MAYBE and only MAYBE Britain could be regarded as Evil by some! You never know! There is an old saying! It takes one to know one!
cheers
PS I am sure that many Turkish Cypriot see Turkey as evil as well BUT can not express that Freedom of speech without repercussion!
Look what happened with the reporter Panak? Murdered an NO investigation in to it at ALL! |
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